Parent Journey: Prince & Heidi Sabena (Part 1)

[2:34] Prince & Heidi’s introduction

[7:46] Ruby’s c-section at 35 weeks gestation

[10:50] How they got a pump and what was available to them

[13:17] Bringing Ruby home and beginning their breastfeeding journey

[17:15] Working with Jacqueline and how they virtually diagnosed Ruby’s ties

[21:44] Heidi and Prince take Ruby to see a pediatrician for her ties but get passed around to various surgeons and doctors with crazy diagnosis

[27:01] How Heidi is pumping and breastfeeding in the midst of their pediatric runaround

[33:51] They used an acid reflux medication and how that helped Ruby

[35:18] Prince’s bond as a father with his daughters and how important that fraternal, masculine energy is.

[39:46] Ruby’s symptoms and their transition to drying up breast milk and switching to formula

[43:30] Heidi and Prince realize they need to start researching other options

 

00:00:03 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Hi, I'm Jacqueline Kincer and for the past five years I've been helping families all around the globe to overcome their breastfeeding challenges and this is the first non clinical Breastfeeding podcast which shows you how to rock breastfeeding. And master motherhood through practical tips, mindset shifts and honest conversation to create a confident and empowering breastfeeding journey. This is the Breastfeeding talk podcast.

 

00:00:37 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Welcome podcast. I'm your host, Jacqueline Kincer and I am really excited to bring you an incredible story. It's not just a mom journey today it's a parent journey and we're sharing the story of Heidi and Prince Sabina. They were my clients. To the breastfeeding. Just last year and. They live in Africa, so getting help was not as easy there as it can be for people in the US or some other countries or continents. So we're going to be diving into the story of their daughter Ruby and breastfeeding her and tongue. And lip ties and what it's like to deliver a baby in a third world country in the middle of a pandemic. It was a little bit nut. And we're going to be talking a lot about the logistics of things, how breastfeeding ended up going for her. It's a very dramatic story, if you will. But I also love that her husband, Prince, he was a very involved partner and parent from the very beginning. And he's sharing his perspective as the dad in this journey too. So in Part 1, you're going to be hearing about. The beginning of things with Heidi and Ruby and what Prince saw happening and their initial steps of working with me, and I will encourage you to stay tuned for Part 2, which will be released next to finish out their story, see what ended up happening with Ruby, how they finally got everything resolved. And where things are at today. So this is a story of tongue tie of an incredible marriage of perseverance. Of pandemic of so many different things, honestly, we cover a lot in these two episodes, so I can't wait for you to dive in. I can't wait for you to meet Heidi and Prince. Let's get started.

 

00:02:34 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Welcome to the podcast, Prince and Heidi. I'm so excited to talk to you today and hear everything about your story with tongue, tie and breastfeeding and all of the things. So say hello to everyone.

 

00:02:52 Prince Sabena

 

Hi everyone.

 

00:02:54 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Tell everyone where you live, and then any background you want to share about yourselves or your family.

 

00:03:01 Heidi Sabena

 

Well, I will start. So my name is Heidi and I'm originally from Michigan and I my career for a time was I was a dental hygienist for about 11 years. And then I just really began to just feel this call in my heart that I wanted to do missionary work, just work with people in Africa. And in 2004 was the first time I came over to Uganda and I worked with high school students and I was just kind of discipling and mentoring and doing counseling and stuff with high school students. And then I was here for altogether. I kind of. Went back to the. States for a little bit. And then I came back full time just knowing I. Wanted to be here long term. And I was single at that time. And then when I was. Here for about 5. Years then I met this handsome Prince, whose name was also Prince. And yeah, we met, and we met underneath a mango tree at a a student meeting, actually.

 

00:03:56 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Yeah.

 

00:04:03 Heidi Sabena

 

And yeah, it I just remember being very impressed with him and then we ended up dating and we got married in 2014. So May 31st, we'll be celebrating 8 years in marriage and it's just hard to believe it's been that long. Yeah.

 

00:04:22 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Wow, congratulations.

 

00:04:24 Heidi Sabena

 

Thank you. Thanks. And we have 3 beautiful daughters. Naomi is 6 1/2 that have very important and we have a 5 year old whose name is Hannah. And then Ruby is 11 months old. She was born June 1st of. 2021 so in like just weeks, I'm gonna have a one year old and it's just gone by so fast. So it's crazy. Yeah. But I will share. Let him share a little bit about himself.

 

00:04:56 Prince Sabena

 

As my wife has said, we live in Uganda and we're here. We do something called business as mission. So that's we build businesses with the goal of helping people here provide jobs for them, but also help them come to know God. And so I run a couple of businesses here in Kampala.

 

00:05:16 Prince Sabena

 

One is a safari company and and the other is. We grow and process coffee and. So I I both love coffee and we love to also sell it as well. Yeah, that's a little bit about me as well.

 

00:05:32 Heidi Sabena

 

And Prince is Rwandan and he because of the genocide many. Years ago, he was. It was not a great place for him to grow up, so his parents sent him to Uganda. And so he's been in Uganda since he was about 9. He went to different boarding schools, went to university here and and then just began his career here. So that's kind of how we met here in Kampala, which is the capital city of Uganda. So we live in Kampala. Ugh. And I've just this year clocked 15 years in Uganda. So it's really home all. Of our girls. Have been born in Uganda and that's all they know. And they're American citizens, but they really don't know what it's like to live in Uganda at this point. So. We'll be coming. Back to yeah, to America. Right. Sorry. So we'll be coming back to America. Yeah, pretty soon, maybe next year, and then we'll have a. Chance to live there for. About a year before we come back and. Keep. We're willing doing what we're doing, so that's us.

 

00:06:35 Jacqueline Kincer

 

That's wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing. And that's just, honestly, an inspiring story, I think for both of you. Just the path that you've taken in your careers and just your mission driven, you know, life that you're living and it's really beautiful. And so Ruby is really the one that is brought you on the podcast today. And I cannot believe that she's almost a year old. That's just wild. How quickly they grow up and you've got three girls, so you know. But tell us a bit about Ruby and you know how really you and I met, so to speak, because we obviously haven't met in person. But hopefully one day we'll have to get to. Find a way while you're here in the states for a year to get together. I think that'd be so fun.

 

00:07:25 Heidi Sabena

 

Yeah, well, Ruby is our third baby and I'll share, but Prince is here, especially because he has great perspective. On, you know, Mom brain. There's mom and then all the emotions and just the drama of all of that postpartum time. And so I really like lean on him so much. So I'm thankful he's here to help, but I'll start. It off so. Ruby was born 5 weeks early. He was born at 35. Weeks and that. Was such a surprise we had a scheduled C-section. And for the towards the end of June. And so it was May 31st, it was our anniversary and I was just feeling great and my mom was coming over from Michigan and you know, about two weeks. And so I I was not prepared. I didn't. I didn't have anything packed and all of that. I just thought when my mom comes, we'll kind of, you know cover that. So I was really just trying to take time just to enjoy being a mom of two little girls and just really focus on that before you know, the newborn comes into the house and and now life has now changed and so just had a really great day, felt great. And then the next morning on June 1st, woke up and had, you know, all these. Cramps and contractions and went to see my OBGYN and he did some things, you know, to try and get the labor to stop. But ultimately it didn't stop. And so they just rushed me. To as they call it here, the theater. They rushed me to the operating room and and delivered by C-section. Ruby and immediately they were like she's a baby girl and she is not breathing very well. She's crashing and we need to get her to the the NICU right away, so they rushed her off to the NICU and then and at that time Prince was away. He was about 8 hours away, up in the mountains with the coffee farmers. So he. He was rushing home, so I was really on my own and which I think now with COVID that happens quite a bit. But anyways he finally got there and yeah, and COVID was really starting to begin to really pick up again. It was our second wave and it was the hospitals were really starting to fill up you were seeing.

 

00:09:26 Prince Sabena

 

The new wave Like.

 

00:09:32 Heidi Sabena

 

Trucks lined up and with all the people that hazmat suits. On and things like that and. So we were not really allowed to spend a lot of time with her in the NICU. We could go in once in a while, but they, our NICU is. We're in a developing nation here, and so the doctor that I have in the medical care, like they're really very knowledgeable and skilled, but just they don't have a lot of resources. And then Nikki? It's just very tiny and compact, and there was no thought for kangaroo thing or any. Of that stuff. So. Ruby was in the NICU for the first seven days of her life, and then we finally were released to come home and. I just love breastfeeding. I really wanted to do that. Like I I knew that this was going to be our last baby and I wanted to have a very successful breastfeeding journey. I wanted it to go at least up to a year, maybe longer, cause I knew it was our last baby and I wanted just that bonding and just all the health benefits and and of course, it's even the cost of it and just like. Convenience, like so many great reasons for breastfeeding. And so that was just in my mind, that was my goal. I always said I'll just take it lightly, but you. Know that's my goal, yeah.

 

00:10:45 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Can I ask were you pumping while Ruby was in the NICU then? OK, what does that look like for people who are listening, who might not know what it's like to give birth in a developing country? How did you get a pump? What was available to you? Like, did that go OK?

 

00:10:49 Heidi Sabena

 

Yes, I was. I'm glad you asked that question.

 

00:11:09 Prince Sabena

 

You go to get a. Manual pump up.

 

00:11:11 Heidi Sabena

 

1st at first and it the nipple shield was.

 

00:11:13 Prince Sabena

 

And it. Painful.

 

00:11:15 Heidi Sabena

 

Like for a very, very tiny nipple and I have larger ones. So it was just so painful. I just wanted to.

 

00:11:21 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Hmm.

 

00:11:23 Heidi Sabena

 

Die. It just was. Awful. And then a friend of mine. And was sharing my story and with her sister and her sister had just previously and not very lot like about 8 months before I had a baby. And so she said, well, I'll send my pump over. It worked well for me. So you can do it. But just note there's no options for nipple shield sizes. There's no talk about elastic nipples. There's like none of that. And so I used hers, but it was better than the manual. But it was. It was just a single one. It was just. Excruciating, but I had nothing to do. I just had to do it. I I mean the the NICU nurses were just saying you must bring us. I don't know how much it was like something like an ounce every two hours. You must get that. So I just. No, I was getting the colostrum out like little tiny drips. And we would take that down. So, yeah, I did pump while I was there. And it was just really hard and discouraging.

 

00:12:06 Prince Sabena

 

Yeah, it was. Maybe. Is it an ounce? Every. And I would take. It down to the. Yeah. OK. Thank you.

 

00:12:15 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Oh.

 

00:12:28 Heidi Sabena

 

For sure, especially because I'm on Instagram all the time, so I see all the options of what is available in the US, and yet it's like there's just no possibility of getting it. You just have to have somebody bring it over, especially during the time. Of COVID like. It's hard to get things right now, so. Yeah. And I foolishly because I just, I just was so confident I was going to breastfeed. I had breastfed Naomi and I I breastfeed her up to a year and then I breastfed Hannah till seven months. So I just thought, no, I'm just really gonna do this. I'm more knowledgeable. I didn't even buy a pump. I just thought, no, I don't need a pump. I just. I'm just gonna be I'm a stay at home Mom. I'm just gonna breastfeed. You know? I don't. I don't. I hate pumping. I'm just not gonna do it. So I didn't even buy one at all. It's just so dumb. So then we came home and we were trying to breastfeed and. She was just. So, I mean, she was little as every newborn is, but such a little. Mouth and I had worked with. Lactation consultants, two different ones. One with Naomi and one with Hannah here. In the country, but they were. Not the the best, so I didn't want to go back with them again, but I had learned a lot and so I knew about latching and all of that and I was working really hard at that, but it just wasn't working. She was falling asleep all the time, like she was just a sleepy baby. So I thought it's just a newborn. I kept trying. She would try to nurse. We might get a good latch, but then it would. Just slide off. Very quickly, we just. Kept working and she would nurse and. Then just fall asleep, but she. Was so when she. Would wake up, then she was still hungry and. I just. I don't. Know like I just felt like I I was on every lactation consult I was reading and reading and reading, and I just, yeah, like it just wasn't working and.

 

00:14:19 Prince Sabena

 

And and I think the first two weeks, I think we didn't realize what was going on and because she was still very sleepy, you know, you would breastfeed her and she would go to sleep, didn't make a sound. She just got jaundice. So we would take her out and for sunbathing. So it seemed OK. But once those first two weeks. Passed then. And. Then she started showing that she yeah, like she was not gaining weight. She was crying now more often and spitting up. Yeah.

 

00:14:43 Heidi Sabena

 

She wasn't gaining weight. Spitting on. And she kept doing this arching of her back, like which we had never had a baby. Do that. Just arching, always arching her back and screaming. And then. And just wasn't a great sleeper and I was just exhausted and really emotional. Of course, just the hormones and everything and just it was just so hard. And Prince just kept saying. You know, I think you should. Look into just getting a lactation consultant, but I just thought ohh I don't know, I don't know. Like I thought. Ohh I don't know how they're gonna help me out online, and I don't want anyone here. And I just thought like I knew I was trying, like everything I was learning. I thought I'm learning so much online and I'm trying it all. Like maybe. And and I didn't want to spend the money. I just kept being like, I don't want to spend the money. I feel bad. Like, you know, everything is just expensive. We weren't expecting. And Nick, you stay. And all of that and I just didn't want to spend the money, but finally he just kept saying, look, you just need to each step encouraging me. So fine. Only I. Like I say I would. I had been following a lot of different, you know, one Instagram leads you to all different things. And Jacqueline, you just stood out like you were just, I mean, the content and the look of just your Instagram page and your website is so good. You also the fact that you had developed a a supplement to help boost. Breast milk? I don't know. You just seem so scientific and you watching all of your videos and you just seemed so much more knowledgeable. And but just very gracious. I just liked that you weren't like, it's all about breastfeeding. And if you don't do breastfeeding, then you're not doing it and. Just. Yeah, I just loved just your tone and everything. And. And so I went with you, which I think Prince thought I was going to go someone cheaper. And it was just like I. No, I know. This is who I Have to go with, you know. And so we met virtually. And when you came on, yes, I did. I felt like this. Person I've been following in like. You've been helping me. I felt like you were just this friend. But this celebrity, when you came on, we met with you at, like, 8:00 in the evening it. Was she was almost like exactly 4. Weeks old, I think to that.

 

00:17:03 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Day and I think she wasn't quite like where she would have been full term, right? That's what I remember, yeah.

 

00:17:10 Heidi Sabena

 

Right. It it was like she exactly. It was like when she was about ready, when she should have been born. Right. You had us do breastfeeding. You watched that. You said the latch looked OK and like, all the things seemed to be OK. But then you said let's look inside. And so we did a video and then you, you know, assess that she had a. Tongue tie, a fairly significant posterior tight tongue tie and said I think you really need to go see your pediatrician about this and see what they say, but it really does look like it's pretty significant and that's going to really affect your breastfeeding. So am I remembering all this right?

 

00:17:48 Prince Sabena

 

Yeah, I was just thinking to myself, I think those are series of issues. It was not just the tongue tie. Yeah, because you were struggling with the latching. You're not convinced of it. She was also. You were getting, I think your your breasts were getting closed and you're not getting enough breasts. Enough supply. Yeah. And also watching Ruby and how she's responding and seeing how.

 

00:18:04 Heidi Sabena

 

Yeah. Producing enough milk.

 

00:18:15 Prince Sabena

 

Screaming and she's, you know, spitting out a lot and she can't sleep when she spits out in the bed and, you know, we would have to hold her up for some for so long before we put her down just to give her a chance to, you know, the milk go, go through her gut. And so there's all these issues. And so we really could not discern what the problem was. And I think, Heidi, I remember even before we we scheduled the call with you, she can't, she would say. I think she has a tanker. I I wonder if she's a tankie because. She has all this.

 

00:18:51 Heidi Sabena

 

And the lip tide.

 

00:18:51 Prince Sabena

 

This. Yeah, like that. She has all these symptoms that are typical of tantie. Everything I wear in mine, it says it's a tongue tie. And honestly, I didn't believe her. I mean, I thought she was obsessed about it because she would spend hours and hours. Hours online just looking at different resources and I could tell that she was just so frustrated about this all and and that once she's not able to breastfeed the way she would have she hoped she would, she's not getting the supply. She's doing everything and she was drinking, you know, she was trying all kinds of things to do. How much? And she was drinking as much as she could. And it was just nothing was working out. And so I think talking to you, there was just a lot that needed to be to to bring some level of clarity and and to clear out all the confusion. I think it was that time. It was the first time that. I heard someone else say I think she has a tongue tie because up until then it was Heidi who was telling me that she was a tongue tie. And so then you keep going. But I just thought that was.

 

00:19:54 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Yeah, I. Well, I wanna say I I loved from the get go. That Prince you were very involved. And I see that makes such a big difference for a lot of families in terms of the outcome and when someone is going through the things Heidi was going through, it's really easy to get burned out. With all of that, not just how things are going, but racking your brain. Trying to research. And find that answer right. And so it's like she did as much as she could have done herself that you came in and recognized. Hey, maybe you can't do anymore. And we should have someone else, you know, be a part of this. And I really like that. You advocated that for her because there's so many times. Where I'll have a conversation with you. One who is in a similar place and they want help, but then they go, yeah, my husband's, you know, doesn't really wanna spend the money or he just says, well, let's just give formula and it's heartbreaking to hear when people don't have that support. So you played a big role in this. Friends. And you were. We were able to look in Ruby's mouth that day because you were there to help with. The camera's going in the right place and and getting Ruby in the right position so that I could do that visual assessment with you. So I appreciate you is all I wanted to say.

 

00:21:27 Prince Sabena

 

I had lost my wife.

 

00:21:28 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Like she's miserable. Help.

 

00:21:32 Heidi Sabena

 

Yeah, it was so validating to have somebody. Say what I was thinking because it's just you just need someone to kind of confirm that and you just feel like I'm not. Crazy like I'm. Not crazy and. When we went then, after we met with you, we then immediately went to see our pediatrician. And that's when he said she isn't gaining. The weight at. The rate that she should and he was really. I just told him look, I know that this is not a common thing, this tongue tie, but I've had two kids. I've breastfed two kids. Something is different and he actually like finished my sentence, he said. Something's different and I said yeah, it is and I really appreciated that. But he said OK, I I believe you and I I just was thankful that like he couldn't see it, but he didn't really know what to do about it. Being that we're here in Uganda. And so he said, OK, well, why don't you go see this? Pediatric surgeon. So that set us up on a journey of seeing a pediatric surgeon that he recommended and that didn't really turn out well. And then we went to see another one that someone recommended and that was. A very distressing experience, just I won't go into all of that. We then saw another pediatric surgeon that someone saw. Then we saw we went back to him and. Said we've gone to.

 

00:22:44 Prince Sabena

 

Three different I'm one of them. I remember looking at her and saying I think there's a tongue tied there, but he didn't think it was.

 

00:22:47 Heidi Sabena

 

Surgeons.

 

00:22:54 Prince Sabena

 

That serious, and so he felt. I don't feel like I don't feel comfortable with doing. Anything. About this, come back after a few. Months and say yeah and we'll review it. But at that point, I mean, Ruby was having this like a lot of acid reflux.

 

00:23:01 Heidi Sabena

 

Yes.

 

00:23:09 Prince Sabena

 

And you just felt so bad for her, seeing her and the pain that she was in. And, you know, sometimes you just feel helpless and you know how.

 

00:23:12 Heidi Sabena

 

Name that. She.

 

00:23:18 Prince Sabena

 

To comfort her. So we went back to the pediatrician in the store and everybody has turned us down, but they don't think they don't. They don't see it or they.

 

00:23:26 Heidi Sabena

 

Don't think it? Then we went to another one. Had said no way this. Baby does not have a tongue tie, never looked in the mouth, ever. All three of them never did, and then said, I actually think she might have cerebral palsy, I mean, I just like. I literally laughed. I just thought you cannot throw that massive of a diagnosis out. Just like, ohh. I think she has cerebral palsy. It just looks like. There is nothing as a mom at that time that I could do other than just like I was so thankful I've done so. Much research because.

 

00:23:56 Jacqueline Kincer

 

It was just like, Oh my goodness. It was wild. I remember when you told me that because I was like, well, I I have exhausted my network of trying to find people and.

 

00:23:59 Heidi Sabena

 

Right, like.

 

00:24:06 Jacqueline Kincer

 

In your country, and I was trying to give you some strategies of who to look for questions to ask and then you came back with that and I was like, I mean, I'm no doctor, but I just can't see several palsy. Is the diagnosis there. But I'm glad that you you definitely weren't swayed by that because that was just crazy to me. And you.

 

00:24:27 Heidi Sabena

 

Yeah.

 

00:24:28 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Obviously.

 

00:24:29 Heidi Sabena

 

We went, we did go to a pediatric neurologist. We're like, well, you know, she did a place where she lost oxygen. We don't know. So at this point, I. Think she was? Probably she had maybe three months or I think getting close to two months to now. So we went to see and he tested her and said no, I I think.

 

00:24:42 Prince Sabena

 

Yeah.

 

00:24:48 Heidi Sabena

 

Actually, he said, I do think she has more of a tongue tie. Yeah, the acid reflexes from that, but didn't really have much help for us in.

 

00:24:56 Prince Sabena

 

That, yeah, actually was very helpful because remember, he picked out a few other things because he said She had, like a high arched pallet. Which at that point he was the first one who told us we recognized that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So his visit, even though it was, you know, thankfully it was not suitable policy. His visit was helpful.

 

00:25:12 Heidi Sabena

 

Yeah. And then.

 

00:25:13 Jacqueline Kincer

 

And this was the neurologist, right? I I have to say, you guys actually found some pretty good doctors along the way, because even in the US where it's, I think, more accepted that it's recognized and and diagnosed to have a tongue tie in a baby.

 

00:25:15 Heidi Sabena

 

Pediatric neurologist yeah.

 

00:25:31 Jacqueline Kincer

 

None of those types of professionals you mentioned would diagnose the tongue tie most likely, so you heard it from these doctors that I'm shocked they even had the awareness. I thought that was such a blessing actually. Yeah, yeah. Even if they didn't know what to do about it or, you know, recommend.

 

00:25:49 Heidi Sabena

 

Treatment. Yeah. Then we went to see one more pediatric surgeon and she we just a younger one. She was really gracious to.

 

00:25:50 Prince Sabena

 

Yes. I'm gonna go on here. My mom myself, actually, yeah.

 

00:25:57 Heidi Sabena

 

Me as a. But she just then looked at it and then just got out her kit and just went and cut. I was just like.

 

00:26:03 Prince Sabena

 

Yeah. So. Let's deal with it right away.

 

00:26:05 Heidi Sabena

 

Wait, wait. Now. Like it was so shocking and yet. I knew that she didn't really get that. It was a posterior like that was going to be a bit more involved than just your anterior, you know, tongue tie that you just clip and just go. And so she did that and then, and I think she did clip the upper freedom, upper lip freedom and interesting. I just want to backtrack. I mean, I I was a dental hygienist.

 

00:26:23 Prince Sabena

 

She did the.

 

00:26:29 Heidi Sabena

 

I went to dental hygiene school and the only training that we got on town. Ties and upper lip ties was that it can cause recession, certainly down in the lower lingual area. And then the upper and also that it can cause a diastema that was the only training we ever knew about tongue ties and lip ties and what they they caused. And so you know here it was I'm interested in that. But I had no concept of how much this would affect breastfeeding and just, you know, growth and all of all that goes along with. It so.

 

00:27:01 Jacqueline Kincer

 

And while you're going through all these, you know, various surgeons and doctors, what is happening with breastfeeding in the background with Ruby?

 

00:27:10 Heidi Sabena

 

So where we kind of landed was that breastfeeding I was. I then Prince was so sweet and just researched pumps, pumps. That was just I couldn't even handle that. So my husband did all the research on the Spectra and the medela and all of the other ones. And he ended up just ordering one. For me, with bigger nipple Shields and bought like lots of extra options just so. That we just guessed, we kind of used some online ways to measure, but just ordered extra ones such a star and A and a pumping bra and just got me all set up. And so it was shipped over. Spent so much money on that and I just started pumping all the time. I was just pumping and pumping and. What I would do with her is I would have her breastfeed. I tried to breastfeed for about. I would try to. Get up to 8 minutes on uh. You know one side she would generally fall asleep, her jaw, just like she'd slide off and we'd relatch and she would just fall asleep right away. But by 5 minutes she was sound asleep. Then you would get lift her up. Burp her and she would just be like starving so we would do the other side and then at that point, once I had at least tried to stimulate myself as best as I could with her, then I would just feed her with. Bottle, but the reflux was just. That's another thing, just the options of getting. Bottles was very difficult for us.

 

00:28:36 Prince Sabena

 

Yeah. Well, at first we she was breastfeeding and then topping her off with what she had pumped. But that didn't seem to help with the reflux and so we thought maybe it's because of the breastfeeding. So then we stop breastfeeding and all she did was give her pumped breast milk. But that didn't help. Yeah. And then we got bottles, some actually, it was really, I forget how I got them. It was the the ovens bottles because we thought maybe she's getting a lot of gas and then the special oven bottles will call like anti colic. So we got those and we said giving her breast milk.

 

00:29:10 Heidi Sabena

 

And.

 

00:29:16 Prince Sabena

 

With those both. But still didn't help with acid reflux. And then finally I think at 4 1/2 months or maybe five months three months.

 

00:29:24 Heidi Sabena

 

We stopped completely at 3:00.

 

00:29:26 Prince Sabena

 

At three months, that's when we we switched to.

 

00:29:28 Heidi Sabena

 

Except recipe and when totally deformulation.

 

00:29:30 Prince Sabena

 

Yeah, we went to formula cause we noticed with formula the acid reflux was not as severe and and that's why. You did it.

 

00:29:39 Heidi Sabena

 

Yeah, I think it's that right. Before that, I had a conversation with you and you just were you talking about that. And I was just devastated. Like I couldn't not. I remember leaving you a 12 minute message on WhatsApp and I was sobbing and sobbing. And just like, I'm exhausted. I so desperately want to breastfeed. My child, I'm so afraid of this and this. And this and this. Like, I'm so afraid we won't be bonded. But I just cannot keep up with the pumping and I, you know, I felt like I was letting everyone down. I. Felt like I. Was letting you down. I felt like all stuff. It was just like I was taking the weight of the world that I was not meant to carry on me. And so feeling like Ruby was her health was not going to be good and. All this ideas of like not being able to be bonded with my child and. I had Prince just being like. It's become too big. Like it's ruining you like. It's. Controlling you. It's becoming this idol that you're just worshipping, you know, and I'm fearful for where you're at, you know. And I I just want you to know, like, have freedom with me that I think you're doing fine. Like, I think you're doing an awesome job. And it's OK if you give her formula. And but I couldn't take that from him. And then my aunt. Maddie, you know she. Is she was talking with her on my aunt back in America and she was. Saying, you know I. This is like 40 years ago. I gave my daughter like formula and she was fine. And then my mom would say, like, I fed you formula and you turned out fine. Like you're gonna be fine. At what cost is this? And finally, I left you that message and you just. Jacqueline, you are so gracious. You'll always have the special place in my heart. I just think lactation consultants, not all of them are just angels walking around to these crazy emotional moms. And you were just. You have a family. I I. I'm a lactation consultant. I'm all for breastfeeding. But I also think it's not. It's not for everyone, and it's not for all time. Like at what point, you know, like you. You have two kids. You have a family. At is it? Really, that important to lose your family, to lose your sleep. To lose your health, to just be breastfeeding, you know, like I think you've done great, but there are different circumstances with Ruby and at this. And we we. Had finally hit a wall we we had met with every possible surgeon, ENT everything, and we had hit a wall, and our pediatrician said I think there is no one that can help you. You need to cross borders. You need to go to either South Africa or you need to go back to America. That's your option. And then when I had that message. With you and you were just like. You need to. Have grace for yourself. You've done well like you've made it this far, but, like, don't kill yourself over this, basically. You said it in so many nice ways, but I'm just paraphrasing it all. And I that was what I needed. Jacqueline. It's what I. Needed to just say OK like. Yeah. We're just gonna call that quits. You know, we we did our best, but I'm fighting a battle here. If I could just be back in America and I could just run into somebody's pediatric dentist office and have a CO2 laser. Just, you know, wing Ding that and be done. And I get some therapy and we cut it and we, we we could do this. But and I remember you. Saying look, I can help you. You know, if you were to get a surgery, I could help you relax state. But really, it's a ton of work. And do you really want to put that much time and effort away from your family to get the lactation going again? And it was just what I needed to hear to just bring some perspective. So my husband thanks you as well. Like, I couldn't hear him, I couldn't hear my own aunt who I love her, my mom who I adore. I couldn't hear everyone and all their encouragement. I never received discouragement. It was me that I was beating myself up. Everybody was so supportive and they were, like, Rudy's gonna be fine. And I just needed to hear it from. You the professional. And I needed to hear it from a. Lactation consultant saying. We love to help moms learn how to breastfeed and have a successful breastfeeding journey, but it may not work every time, and that's OK, and your baby's going to be fine. And we started doing formula and that really helped with the acid reflux and.

 

00:33:51 Jacqueline Kincer

 

And and correct me if I'm wrong. Weren't you giving her something in that to help with the reflux also?

 

00:33:57 Prince Sabena

 

That's true. Yeah. You work.

 

00:33:57 Heidi Sabena

 

What I forgot about that?

 

00:34:00 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Yeah. So it wasn't the formula itself. I mean it, you know, it was part of it, but it was also this medicine, right?

 

00:34:07 Heidi Sabena

 

Yes. Oh good memory.

 

00:34:09 Prince Sabena

 

Yeah. And that really actually we used that. For a long time. We did that was. All the way until the surgery. A phone call.

 

00:34:15 Heidi Sabena

 

That's right, you did use that for a long time because it was helping her. Yeah, that was another thing. So we wanted to get an acid reflux medication. I think at some point, people were giving their babies grenadine. That was the one. And then I don't know if there was other ones. But then medicine has been. He called and like, taken off the market, so it was not around and our. Doctor like he. Just on every level was like refusing to give us medication. Prescription medication like we were desperate for him to say yes to that and he would and he just kept saying I want you to give her this gaviscon. It's like kind of thickened some milk, a little bit. And it really that helped a lot. It didn't solve it, but it definitely brought us.

 

00:34:56 Prince Sabena

 

Yeah.

 

00:34:59 Heidi Sabena

 

Her some relief and us some relief because watching your child like projectile everything that you've just given her projectile spitting up every time just is so disheartening as a mom. Yeah, I don't know. Like it was just so disheartening for me and. Then this is screaming and Prince held her upright for basically five months. I just, he said. He still has, like, a he has like a fold muscle. Oh gosh.

 

00:35:24 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Wow.

 

00:35:31 Heidi Sabena

 

Constant to be able to ever get. Her to be. Able to sleep.

 

00:35:34 Prince Sabena

 

So even with the medication, you still, if you didn't hold her up and give her, you know, 30 minutes before you put it down, it still would all come out. And then that's your fault, so.

 

00:35:44 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Right.

 

00:35:46 Prince Sabena

 

You had to. You had. To do it so.

 

00:35:48 Heidi Sabena

 

And he it was hard for I just lean on him so much. I was so thankful one of my first baby with Naomi, a friend of mine said look, remember, this is his baby too. Because we as moms can be like it's my baby. It's my baby. I carry this baby and I'm the breastfeeder. And I know everything she was like, it's his baby. So remember, trust him. Like, allow him to fail. She said my husband packed the diaper bag one.

 

00:36:10 Jacqueline Kincer

 

Yes.

 

00:36:11 Heidi Sabena

 

Time in the church. And forgot diapers. Nobody died. The baby didn't die. He didn't do it. Perfect. But you know what? It's his baby. And like, he should have the freedom to grow in his parenting. Skills, you know. Like, trust him, like even when he's not trustworthy. Give him. The space so. I really leaned into Prince and in some ways he knows our baby so much better than I do. He's so calm. I'm like, what if there's enough? I'm he's just like.

 

00:36:40 Jacqueline Kincer

 

And Prince just comes in like I got. This, you know, just.

 

00:36:43 Heidi Sabena

 

He watches the baby, stares at them study. Like studies them he it's like shocked me at how. Well, he knows our girls and I love that I I rely on that. And so I think what you just said is actually we could do a whole episode about that because I think there is some role of of the maternal hormones that kind of drive us to be a bit possessive of parenting sometimes.

 

00:37:09 Jacqueline Kincer

 

But then to have that partner that can can recognize that and be that steady force and just be there and and then you having someone directing you to allow him to be that Co parent with? Feel that's really powerful because he may not have been able to convince you on his own, and when we allow, like you said, something about allowing him to fail and you know you're not perfect either, none of us are and that's so we don't recognize. But this fear of cuz you you want it to be right so you just you wanna you know maybe if you can direct everything it'll be correct. Yeah, yeah. But when you allow him to fail, you allow him to be a better parent. So the. Fear of not that he's not a good parent, but right like you, just allow your partner to be that better parent when you let them figure it out on their own. So I love that. Yeah.

 

00:37:58 Heidi Sabena

 

Yeah. And letting the girls, or if you have a son, you letting them bond with your daddy, letting them build their relationship like they have a very different relationship with their daddy than they do with me and it should be that way, you know? And I I mean, hats off to moms who are single moms. I don't know. How? It's just like grace. Like God. God gives to moms who are single moms. For, yeah, so I I I am really thankful that I do lean into that. And then also just. With her acid reflux. She was like. Physically in pain on my chest because my breasts would be pushing into her little tummy as I would hold her. And so the only person that she really found relief with was him because he's got this flat chest, this big comfortable warm cuddle, you know, big Daddy to just rest on and. It was like I felt bad for him because he was actually like, getting so little sleep because he was the one really I would do like ohh well he would do the feeding, toothpaste, feeding and all of that. But like just resting on that big straight chest to allow her to have some relief and. Every time I would hold her. It would just be pressing into her and she would scream and scream. And I was just like ohh. I feel bad and her mom. I'm supposed to be comforting her. But like, these nipples are just hurting her and she needs her daddy. And so I think just my encouragement. Yeah, to moms just be OK to like. We like you say, I fail all the time and he's gracious to let me fail with our kids and I need to be allow him to learn our kids and. And to be able to fail and. Make those mistakes and. We really pull together and are able to work together as a team. I need his. And he needs my strengths and we learn from each other's weaknesses and we can shore up each other's weaknesses. I'm just really thankful for.

 

00:39:45 Jacqueline Kincer

 

That, but yeah, so you yeah, you transitioned to formula and I remember you leaving me another long voice message about that and you felt better. Doubt it, but you still were like, you know, because she was having the reflux and there was this general level of unease with her. So we can talk about that and where you went next.

 

00:40:11 Heidi Sabena

 

Yeah. So I mean, breastfeeding then had to dry up, which is a really sad place that brings a lot of emotions. But finally the fog lifted. I think once the hormones kind of finally settled and the breast milk was dried up and it was like what we decided, but she still was. Yeah, having the acid reflux. And one thing that we really noticed was how tight her body was, which is another thing. She was just like she was so tense. Like her arms were in a constant like fight position, like, curled up her neck like she. Had those deep, deep. Rows which were all red and infected. She was. We were constantly fighting wounds in her neck because of the deep neck furrows. And then, of course, getting all the spit up in it. And I mean, we were putting desitin in her neck creases to just try and, like, help. It was like diaper rash because she was so. Tense and you know, wasn't here. She was coming to, like, four months. Five months. When do babies kind of start sitting up? There was no sitting up like she wasn't even close to sitting up. And you're seeing your friends. Babies that are kind of that age, like doing so much more. So just the tension, the not great sleeping, her nap schedules were not great during the day. She was a pretty good night sleeper. Interesting, Nana.

 

00:41:31 Prince Sabena

 

She was there, thankfully.

 

00:41:33 Heidi Sabena

 

Yeah, thankfully we. Were like marking all the signs like on every I was, you know, on Doctor Baxter's website for the Alabama Tongue Tie Clinic and Doctor Zaggy and. I. Was reading, you know, from the Sarah Sarah Hornsby? See. About just breathing in the palette and like having your tongue, it's not about getting your tongue to stick out, but really being able to lift your tongue up to the palette and to get that seal. And with Ruby, she's always clicking on the bottle, dribbling everywhere, every. Sign and symptom was still really there.

 

00:42:10 Prince Sabena

 

And it was. So labored watching her feed, I think.

 

00:42:13 Heidi Sabena

 

Even through a bottle would take like an. Hour or something?

 

00:42:15 Prince Sabena

 

Yeah, it it was just so exhausting for her. You could see how. So I think sometimes she would not even. Be satisfied. She's not fool, but she's just exhausted from the feeding that she needed to sleep. Yeah. And then many times where I would just be feeding our bottle and you could tell this how much effort she's putting into this. And I don't remember seeing my other kids spending this much on a bottle and should be sweating. So I think all those, but at some point we thought, yeah. It was like.

 

00:42:47 Heidi Sabena

 

A full time job. Just. To feed her, I felt like I couldn't get anything done because of every feeding session was.

 

00:42:53 Prince Sabena

 

So long it was, it took two hours sometimes to get it all done. Every feed and and I think also just we almost moved on from the whole time. Issue because we had no option. And so I think we thought we we just. Have this is. Part of what she has and just, you know, other kids probably there's so many out there that live with this. So I remember kind of just settling and realizing this is just going to be a part of our life. We need to move on because we. Don't have options for this, but I couldn't settle. But yeah, you couldn't settle. And every time we went to the pediatrician as well, he felt the pain that we were, you know, we were, we had. And I think he wanted to help. But you know how to help. And he would encourage us to look for options elsewhere. I think that's when. I started doing the research, yeah.

 

00:43:43 Jacqueline Kincer

 

So we are going to have to take pauses right here because there's still so much more to come. And right now at this point in their journey, it sounds like things are hopeless. It sounds like poor little Ruby is just going to be suffering and she is just going to be this high needs baby that they're just going to have to learn to deal with. But I promise you things do. Turn a corner, so make sure you're subscribed to the podcast so you get a notification when Part 2 of this episode goes. Live because things get really interesting. Heidi and Prince learned so much, and they share all of it with you. And the show notes are chock full of great information as well, especially if you live in a country where it might be hard to access this type of treatment or specifically if you do live on the African continent and are looking for. Some great help, so make sure you're subscribed and stay tuned. See you on the next episode. Did you know most moms stopped breastfeeding in the first month post?

 

00:44:48 Jacqueline Kincer

 

I believe succeeding at breastfeeding means having the right mindset. In fact, studies show that the number one factor that determines breastfeeding success is commitment, which is why I've created my incredible audio download of breastfeeding affirmations where I give you. Actionable mantras so you can breastfeed your baby with confidence and Peace of Mind and best of all, it's free to get access to this audio and PDF. Simply visit holistic lactation. Com mantras and you can get started right now.