Weaning Tales: Children's Book Authors Talk About Toddlers & Weaning

Weaning Tales: Children's Book Authors Talk About Toddlers & Weaning



Join Jacqueline in a unique, collaborative episode where she speaks with several authors of weaning books. Julie Dillemuth shares her process for writing Loving Comfort, a toddler-weaning story. Katherine Havener discusses the inspiration behind Nursies When the Sun Shines, a night-weaning story. Yvette Reid talks about her experience writing Booby Moon and Booby Moon for Two, a tandem nursing weaning story.

In this episode, you’ll hear:

  • Advice from each author for parents who are trying to wean their toddlers from breastfeeding
  • The personal stories of readers who have used these books to wean their children
  • What inspired each author to write their books and why they decided to approach weaning in this way



A glance at this episode:

  • [3:50] Julie’s Intro and how she got started writing children’s books
  • [8:11] How important it is for children to see themselves represented in literature and how Julie’s books contribute to that
  • [11:06] Feedback Julie has received from readers over the years
  • [14:31] The process of writing and publishing a children’s book
  • [17:40] Julie’s other children’s books she’s written and her future plans
  • [21:40] Julie’s personal tip for anyone trying to wean their toddler
  • [26:00] Katherine’s intro and what she does
  • [27:12] What inspired Katherine to write a book about night weaning
  • [30:15] How Katherine decided on a book as opposed to another outlet 
  • [31:28] Katherine’s process of outsourcing the visual design for her book
  • [33:00] The impact Katherine’s book is making on other families
  • [35:17] Katherine’s future plans as an author
  • [40:54] Katherine gives a piece of personal advice for night weaning
  • [46:10] Yvette’s background in writing books and her inspiration for writing children’s books
  • [54:29] The impact that Yvette’s book has had on other families
  • [58:00] Yvette shares about her second book
  • [1:03:51] Yvette’s future plans as a children’s author


Jacqueline Kincer  0:38  

Welcome to the Breastfeeding Talk Podcast. I'm Jacqueline Kincer. And this week we are talking with several authors of weaning books. So this is an exciting topic that I got the idea to do when I pulled out loving comfort by Julie Dillemuth. And she is someone who has really inspired me because I purchased her book when my son was a toddler in preparation for weaning him and just coming full circle to be able to chat with her and other authors of other books that I also purchased and have recommended to clients for years and given to friends. So I'm super excited to dive into this topic. 

But first I wanted to share so that we have some exciting news. So if you have not joined our program, the Nurture Collective yet, you still have plenty of time to do that and get in on the special guest speaker presentation from Dr. Liz Turner. She actually had to reschedule which is totally fine. You know, as a working mom, I totally get it. And we're here to support that. So Liz is going to be joining us on June 5 at 11 am Pacific time. So you can come and join. We've got a couple of coffee chats this month that are focused on the topic of ties, Dr. Turner has been on the podcast twice. And she will be talking really in depth about ties, being live answering your questions. If you can't attend the live, you can pre-submit your questions that she will personally answer with her expertise as a dentist that treats ties. So we're super excited to have her and that she's still able to join us. And then if you want to access that guest expert presentation are ongoing coffee chats, we have archives of our past coffee chats and guest speakers, a complete library of videos, guides and resources for navigating every step of your breastfeeding journey, go to the nurture collective.co, we've got that linked up in the show notes for you. 

So as a podcast listener, what you'll find here on the show is wonderful, but also kind of just scratching the surface. And there's a lot more inside, plus support from Cait and I and Mackenzie and all of the other wonderful members inside our community. 

So I'm chatting to Julie today, she's an incredible author, that is just an awesome human being. And she shares with us the ins and outs of her book, a toddler meaning story loving comfort. And this book is just I think so needed, along with many others. So I would encourage you to really listen to the different perspectives of these authors who have written various winning books on this particular topic. You know, it seems like a real niche thing. And it seems like something that, you know, is very optional. And well, you know, I'll figure it out. I don't need a book to do this. But I think through them telling their stories and the feedback they've gotten from readers over the years, you'll find just how essential it might be to have at least one, if not several winning books in your collection. So listen.

Jacqueline Kincer  3:50  

Welcome to the show. Julie, I'm so excited to have you here to have this conversation about weaning and your book or books. So this is a real treat. I was I was telling Julie before we have recorded here, like I bought her book loving comfort years ago when my son was a toddler as an educational tool because I needed some, you know, ways of having that conversation with my older child about weaning from breastfeeding. So here she is. It's like full circle. So yeah, I'm excited to have you here. Thank you. Yeah, thanks so much. I'm really happy to be here. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Let's just start with you know, tell us a little bit about yourself and your background in writing children's books. 

Julie Dillemuth  4:31  

Yeah, so I have been writing picture books for kids for about this is my 13th year I think writing and I got into it through writing about spatial thinking. So I have a background in geography. And I wanted to write books that were like educational but also fun and engaging and educational part was getting kids to think about where they are in their environment, tuning into the surroundings, thinking spatially which means like thinking about where they are in relation to other things or how things you know, spatial relationships. So we use spatial relationships or problem solving all the time, right? Everything's related to everything else. And whether you're like driving around looking for a parking space or packing a backpack or, you know, whatever you're doing, it's all about how things relate to other things, and maps, and, you know, navigation. And that's kind of my area of expertise. So I was reading picture books that involve maps and problem solving, and storytelling with maps. And I'm just having so much fun doing that. And then for the with the toddler weaning book that came about, because I was in a group with some moms, you know, we all have the same age kids. And our kids were like, two, two and a half. And there was a mom who said, I'm looking for picture books to read with my son about weaning, does anybody know of any? 

And we were like, nope, like, that's have not heard about that, that. But that would be really cool. And I went home, and I was thinking, well, I write for kids. And I'm in the process of weaning my daughter. So I should write a book. And that's kind of where the idea came from. And then I kind of did some research. And there were a couple of books out there, I mean, hard to find, you know, self published because the publishing world deems the market too small to have a viable picture book out there. And so there are a couple of books out there already. And what I found is that they were focused on, like, what you can do now that you're a toddler, like, you're not a baby anymore, you're a toddler, there's this whole new world opening up of things that are exciting, and breastfeeding is not really part of that. And so that that was well and good. But for me, with my daughter, like I was really concerned about not having that source of comfort for her. Because, you know, she, that's how she fell asleep was breastfeeding.

And that's how when she was upset or hurt, like breastfeeding was always our go to, and it worked really well. And she was like, she was so hard to get down for a nap. Like, naps were disaster in our house. And so but I knew like on the breast, you know, she would fall asleep. And that was like, so as I was thinking about that going away, I was really like, what else? What am I going to do? How is this going to work and so thinking about other ways to provide comfort, because at that point, being a toddler, like, that's what she was coming to the breast for, right. And so if I could think about other ways that I provide comfort, and that's kind of how the story develops. So the story is about Jack, who starts off and we see him as a baby nursing around the clock, and there's some humor in there about, you know, like, all hours of the night and and then it kind of goes through as he's develops and starts to explore food, and then the boundaries start to come on. But the other ways of comforted there from the start, right, his mother smells, the her the sound of her heartbeat, the Center for voice, her loving arms. And then at the end of the book, those all those things are still there, right. So he's, he's moved beyond the breastfeeding, but all those other sources of comfort, remain. And so that was that was like really calming to me, as a mom, like reassuring. And so I felt that, you know, it would speak to other moms and other people out there.

Jacqueline Kincer  8:03  

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that the story really centers on the boy Jack, right. And I'm curious how important you think it is for children to see themselves represented in literature? And how does how does your book contribute to that? Because this isn't your only book, and we'll talk about that. But you know, it's a story for children, but also for parents,

Julie Dillemuth  8:27  

right? And it's, you know, I think books are a great way to open conversations with kids about various things, right? If a child sees like the story with here is a child character, doing these different things than the parent can like help relate it to the child's life, you know, what's similar? What's different? What does this child feeling in the story? And what are you feeling and it's a way to kind of, you know, expand the conversation, and it for all of us, like, we know that we're not alone. And like, either the situation or how we're feeling and how by having another story we can relate to, we can kind of like process things right process through the story. And there's even there's research, just kind of talking more generally about, you know, if there's like scary situations, or things or like big emotions, being able to process that through a story, when you're feeling calm, is really like helpful, just kind of like for how we develop and how we like how our brain works, right? So if you're like, if you're in the moment, trying to process something like that's really difficult, but if you're in a calm state, like you're feeling safe with a caregiver, you can kind of go through a situation that would otherwise be hard to process, and then you can process it in a way that when you come across it later, your brain is kind of prepared to deal with it.

Jacqueline Kincer  9:42  

Yeah. And you would send this and we can link it up in the show notes. But Julie was interviewed for this article featured in nature and it talks about, you know, the depiction of breastfeeding situations and children's literature And, you know, I love the whole article. So I, you know, we won't go into that and make it about that. But one of the things I really appreciate it was just the notation, of the limitation of literature we have on this topic. Right? So you've like you said, there were some other books on toddler, meaning they were hard to find, or what have you didn't discourage you from writing one, right? And so the whole idea here is that, you know, should there only be one book, right, because maybe somebody sees themselves in one story and not another, or you can kind of combine the two and especially with

Julie Dillemuth  10:33  

breastfeeding and weaning, like, everyone's journey is so different, right? There's so many variations on the way this can go. And so, you know, I've, I've heard from readers that, like, they kind of adjust what the text says, to kind of fit with our situation more. And so like, if there's a, if you can find a book that really matches your situation, like the closer it matches, like, the easier it's going to be to kind of get into it, it's going to resonate more. So I think there is there's a lot of opportunity for different variations of this of a weaning story, right to kind of capture all these nuances.

Jacqueline Kincer  11:06  

Oh, absolutely. And on that note, too, I'm curious about the feedback from readers of your books, you know, is there something they've said is, you know, very touching or impactful? You know, I imagine, you know, it's such a personal topic, right? I'm sure you've heard from readers over the years.

Julie Dillemuth  11:23  

Yeah, yeah, it's been really wonderful. And it's been really rewarding. Because, you know, I, this book took about four years from when I wrote it to when it came out. And part of like, half of that time was trying to seek a traditional publisher. And then the other half was getting it produced myself and just doing them, you know, it's hard, right? It's, it's hard. It's a lot of time and effort and like, what am I doing? And so during that process, I was like, do I really want to be doing this? And, and then it came out and just I started hearing feedback about how helpful it was. And then I was like, Oh, well, you know, and so in hindsight, it's like, well, that was a no-brainer. I'm really glad I did it. And you know, just and it's nice to hear, it's not for everybody, right? Some people get the book, and it's like, you know, we tried it, it just didn't work, or, you know, but for the most part, it's been really positive. And, you know, sometimes it makes moms cry. Because it is like that sort of, you know, thinking about this whole, like from babyhood into toddlerhood and the mixed emotions that come with it, right? Because, you know, it's for moms who are ready to wean, right? And I know, like, well, actually, for example, advocates baby lead weaning, so your child had to wean? So you're really like, take all your cues from your child, but in some situations, you know, that's not the answer for all moms.

And like, for me, I needed I was I got pregnant with my second. And I really needed to put some boundaries. And I really needed to get my older one weaned when she was about two and a half. And so like, you know, it's like everyone has to make their own choices, what's best for themselves and their child. And even for my own daughter, my younger one, this book came out, like it was all done, like in book form. And she, we were pretty much at the end of weaning. So she was almost done with meaning. And I showed her the book. And that was like, the biggest mistake. She's like, I want to do like, I want this like I miss it like she was. Yeah, so it didn't really kind of work for her at that time. Because she was almost at the end. And it was like too late, right? It reminded her of what she was missing. And she was like, I want to nurse and so I put the book away. But six months later, we either I got it out, or she found it. And it was her favorite book for months because it was like this nostalgia factor. And I had not anticipated this at all. So she's you know, she likes she loves saying, oh, like I used to be a little baby Iris to breastfeed like a nurse. And we call it nursing. And she like went through all the things and just she just really related to Jack and all the changes he went through. And she just like really loved looking back and remembering that time and like snuggling with me. And so that was kind of an anticipated, like set kind of a second purpose of the book. And I've heard from a few other people that that kind of happened to that it kind of stays with them, or something that they like to kind of look back on. Yeah. And then I've also heard, you know, different stages. So some moms have the book, right in the beginning, when their baby is really small. So people get right when they're ready to start weaning and need some, like some help or guidance or like resources. So it's, you know, there's sort of all kinds of different ways you can use the book and get into the book. But it's yeah, it's been great to hear the response, such a positive response.

Jacqueline Kincer  14:30  

That's amazing. And I know you've touched on it, and you, you know, kind of went a couple of different routes to ultimately, you know, get your book to the point that it is. So maybe you could just walk us through that process of writing and publishing a children's book because it sounds like you had one idea but you had to make other plans and it's worked out but I think a lot of people don't realize what goes on behind the scenes.

Julie Dillemuth  14:51  

Yeah, yeah. worked out really well. And I mean, at the time, it's like with any kind of creative endeavor where you'd have never done it before. It's like how's this gonna work but I'm self help. The shooting has come a long way in recent years. But so so backing up throughout the story, revised it a ton. And you know, children's, like any kind of writing involves a ton of revision and workshopping it with other writers and editors or whatever. And so I got the text into the shape that I liked, it worked with a freelance editor and honed it. And then I found and hired an illustrator, who was really on board with the whole concept of it. And I felt really got the message, which was important to me that the illustrator really understand like what I'm trying to do, I hired the book designer, and the book designer takes the text and puts it with the illustrations. And for the illustrator, like I gave her like, this is what I'm picturing for this page, or whatever, and I broke it up into different pages. And picture books are 32 pages long with some of those pages for like the title page and the copyright page. So then just kind of let the illustrator do her thing, because you want to give the illustrator room to be creative, and to bring you know their part to the story, the book designer put it all together and got the files ready for the platform. And I used KDP, which is Amazon's publishing platform, self-publishing platform. And it's print on demand. So what happens is when someone orders the book, they Amazon prints it and ships it. And that's like the printing part. And the distribution part is a big, like, that's where that's the huge financial burden for someone who's self-publishing. Like, in the old days, you'd have to, you know, get a printer, print on your copies, store them in your garage or pay a distributor to keep them and send them for you. And that was like a huge headache that I was not like I wasn't able to take that on. And so buy print on demand, put the book up there in a digital form, and then it gets printed and shipped and someone orders it. So it's really ideal and and it's worked out really well they that KDP does full color. They don't do hard back and I have heard some you know, like this book is a little bit flimsy because it's paperback and I've got a toddler. And you know, paperbacks and toddlers don't always mix. But they don't have an option for that hardback. So that is a limitation.

Jacqueline Kincer  16:59  

I think the quality is great. And I didn't even realize that until, you know, I saw you explicitly mentioned it, because, yeah, to me, I mean, there's plenty of picture books that are, you know, not hardcover. And you know, they're this the same quality here, and they're not KDP. So I love that because you want to get your work out into the world and not have to be burdened with warehousing and shipping and all of these other things. What if you order too many What if you don't have enough? Like, it's it's probably a lot to deal with. So

Julie Dillemuth  17:31  

yeah, and the paperback does keep the cost down too. Because like the full color, like that's a big cost bear. And so not having the hardback is also good for keeping the cost down.

Jacqueline Kincer  17:40  

And you you have other children's books, maybe you could just, you know, tell us briefly about those. And then if you have any other plans to write more books in the future and what those might be about. Yeah, so

Julie Dillemuth  17:50  

my most recent release just came out in May 2023. It's Camila super helper. And Camila is a wild boar character. And her neighbor parsley. The porcupine is always involved in her adventures. And this is the third book third Camila story. The first one was set in winter, the second one in the spring. And this one is in summer, and I'm currently writing the one that is set in fall. These are about, they're about, they're all about change. So there's some aspect of change in each of them. And they're all about using maps for problem-solving in one way or another for storytelling. And so those are really fun. They're also all the Camila books, you know, it's she's a wild boar, she's in the forest. So it's about being outside exploring outdoors. And I'm hoping that it inspires kids to get outside, explore, make up games, all my books have activities, suggestions. In the back, there's a note to parents and caregivers. And the note explains some of the themes of the book and why they're important. And then provides ideas for activities you can do with your child and also adaptable to the classroom so teachers can use them to I love that. Yeah. And then listening to Sydney was my first book. And that came out just a few years before loving, comforted. And that's about a raccoon who gets lost one night, she gets separated from her family in the big city, and she needs to figure out how to get home and she's the youngest of her family. She's always just kind of followed along behind her brother, you know, not really paying attention. You know, a lot of like, much like kids, right? We strapped them in the car, we go somewhere, and they just kind of further along for the ride. And I wanted to kind of plant the seed of oh, I can tune into where I am. 

And so at least he does is she she's like kind of like sniffing because she's sad. And then she smells popcorn. And she remembers that she passed popcorn on the way to these best garbage bins in town where she is and so she could find the popcorn and she would be one step closer to home. So she ends up retracing her steps and enlist the help of an owl who flies up high and kind of gets this like literal bird's eye view. That's kind of a gentle introduction to maps by looking up from a bird's perspective and he helps give her directions to get to the point popcorn at the movie theater. And then she remembers what came before the popcorn. And before that, it ends up finding her way home. And that's really fun. Because with this map, like view, kids like to trace, like where she goes and find the movie theater and the pawn in the park and all the things, that's that's a great story. And that works so that my age range was four to eight for these picture books. But even like preschool kids really enjoy Lucy in the city. And so it's really for a variety of ages. And then the other one is nothing my day, which is about a girl who loves to draw and loves drawing maps. And she takes us through her day, and everything that happens, she draws a map to tell that story. And so there's an illustration of like, what's happening in her world. And then on the next page, there's a map representation of that same thing. So you can kind of compare and I go through different types of maps to show the range of different types of maps there are and what you can do with them. And that's really to inspire kids to draw their own maps or tell their own stories with spatial relationships. And, yeah, just be inspired with that. Oh,

Jacqueline Kincer  21:00  

that is so cool. I love how you brought that geography knowledge into this and created some exciting ways to introduce spatial concepts to children. And it's you're not a you're not a one trick pony. So that's amazing. And also, I wanted to let our listeners know, too, that loving comfort has been translated into four other languages. So that's great. It's what I know, Spanish is one, what are the others

Julie Dillemuth  21:24  

German, Italian and French? Amazing? Well, we

Jacqueline Kincer  21:27  

will absolutely link up your website, because it does have all of the relevant links along with some extra goodies as well. And people, you know, can obviously learn more about you. I would just love to round this out by, you know, having you tell listeners like what, you know, what advice would you give to parents who are trying to wean their toddlers from breastfeeding, you've got, you know, a story in the book and some extra material in there. But yeah, just for anyone listening today.

Julie Dillemuth  21:56  

Yeah. Oh, gosh, what do you say, there's so much I could say, I think, you know, the main thing is to like trust your trust yourself, you know, you know, what's best for you, yourself and your child. And I know, there's like, there's all kinds of advice with all different, you know, from every direction, but when it comes down to it, it's you and your child, or you know, your family and your child, and also realize that every everyone's journey is a little bit different. So you might have this idea, like this vision of how it's gonna go. And it's likely to go completely differently, right? Because we, when we plan, like I do this, I have like this vision of like, oh, it's going to be like this. And then it's totally different. And I'm like, it just throws me off. And that's why I like to write about change with the Camila bugs. But you know, it's, there's resources out there. And so whatever twists and turns it takes, there's resources that you can find, to help you to reassure you to give you guidance, or even just like moral support. So that's what I would say is just kind of be open to the journey. And, you know, there's, there's a community out there to help because we all have to stick together and support each other and do the best we can.

Jacqueline Kincer  22:58  

Absolutely. And I hope that this episode is part of that community for people where they learn about the support and resources and even just, you know, hearing that there's so many others that, you know, have gone through this and are going through it, I think is is really part of what we need to hear as moms. So thank you, Julie, so much for sharing about your books with us and your journey as an author. And yeah, I'm excited to see your next canola book come out. So thank you.

Julie Dillemuth  23:27  

Thank you. Yeah, my pleasure to be here.

Jacqueline Kincer  23:30  

That was such an insightful conversation with Julie Dillemuth, author of loving comfort. We hope you enjoy learning about her journey and the ways that her book can support you and your toddler when it comes to weaning from breastfeeding. But maybe you're a parent struggling with sleepless nights because your toddler just won't wean off nighttime feedings. Maybe it's booby all night long. If so, you're in for a treat. Because we're excited to welcome Katherine Haven author of the book Night Weaning your toddler a gentle approach for sleep-filled nights. In her book, Katheine shares her expertise on gently weaning your toddler off nighttime feedings helping both parents and children get the restful sleep they deserve. We'll be discussing her strategies, tips, and personal experiences to guide you through this challenging, yet rewarding process. So just a little bit more about Katherine. She is actually a colleague of mine, and I've interacted with her before on some ibclc forums and groups and just you know, with COVID and whatnot, haven't really attended in-person conferences and things. So finally, finally, I got to connect with Katherine over something other than written text. And so just so you can get to know her and her experience and expertise a little bit. She has been an international board certified lactation consultant or ibclc. in private practice since 2016. 

She practiced in the San Francisco Bay area until she moved to Roanoke, Virginia in 2019, where she has a thriving practice specializing in tongue ties and oral habilitation. So You can see Katherine is my kind of people. Before she was a lactation consultant, Katherine was an attorney specializing in ethics law. Katherine is the author of the book nurses when the sun shines, which has sold more than 50,000 copies since it was published in 2011. She is the mother of four daughters, ages nine to 19, and spent 10 years in total breastfeeding her babies, including seven months, tandem nursing. So what I love about our conversation is that this is a you know, every winning book is different, right? In this one particularly. So what's really cool is that the conversation we're going to be having with yet another author, after Katherine is actually an author of a book about tandem nursing and weaning. So we've got all types of leading books here and authors, that all have very special insights and some similarities to share with you about weaning through toddlerhood. So stay tuned as we dive into the world of night weaning with Katherine Haven her. Well, welcome to the show. Katherine, I'm super excited. You're here today, I am just a big fan of the work you do. Because you're also a lactation consultants. So that's always amazing. But also, I've used your book for my kids. And of course, I've given it out and recommended it to so many clients or friends over the years and what have you. So anyway, you're here and we get to talk about your work. So for the listeners that don't know you, yeah, tell them a little bit about yourself, your background what you do, because you do a lot of things.

Katherine Havener  26:33  

I have many hats. So yes, I'm Katherine I, my main hat right now as I'm a board-certified lactation consultant in private practice. I'm in Roanoke, Virginia. But I'm also an author, I wrote nurses when the sun shines, which is a book about night weaning, it's helped to facilitate that conversation about night weaning, I before, I was lactation consultant, I was an attorney. So that was interesting, a little bit my first phase of life and and then now we have a splint just practicing. And, you know, being a mom to my four daughters. So it's a very busy life, and I'm very grateful for it. Ah,

Jacqueline Kincer  27:12  

that's so awesome. Well, so because you know, you are a lactation consultant is so great. And what I think is awesome about your book is that it's really kind of this one part of weaning or one way of weaning, which is night weaning, right. So I would love to hear like, I mean, obviously, you're in the world of lactation, but like, what came first like what inspired you to write this book even?

Katherine Havener  27:34  

Yeah, oh, boy, that was I was lactation was not even a twinkle in my eye. When I wrote this book. My I had two daughters at the time, and my second daughter was one of those. You know, anybody who's nursing toddlerhood will understand this boobie Holic. Like, she wanted to be 24/7 every two hours, and I was exhausted. And she was about 18 months old, and I was desperate and there at the time, there was not other books out there. And so someone told me oh, you should just draw one. Well, I can't draw for anything. So it actually came to me one night in, I think I missed, you know, in between boobie sessions and the text for it. So I wasn't able to use it with my second child, because, you know, she, I had the the book took time, but by my time I had a third child rolled around, and she was at that phase, I was able to use her for my third and fourth. So yeah, that'll happen. Probably, like 2011 I think it was published. And I probably wrote it in like, around that about 2010 or so. So, you know, very, um, it became out of necessity, because it's a very hard thing, the concept of teach a toddler night and day, right, it's very hard to enter in when we can have milk and when we can, if you're trying to do that, when so that's where it came in that way back before I was lecturing, it's all

Jacqueline Kincer  28:53  

well, and thank goodness because yeah, I became a mom in 2013. And, you know, I don't my son, it kind of kind of worked out okay with him. Like, it was a gradual process. And he was a baby Holic as an infant, but then toddler was thankfully better. But my daughter was like yours and it was just as intense. And I was like, you know, his book that I've been recommending to clients, I need to get myself a copy.

Katherine Havener  29:20  

Yes, I love that. You know, there's just unless you've lived it, it's just like, there's just some toddlers and I just don't know if it's temperament. I just don't know that are just like that. And actually not just my second one but my third and my fourth they were all just very really and it's attachment. Right? I'm an attachment parent. So I think that's part of it and they just want to and then I think at some point it transitions to from a little bit of the need as you get an infancy towards the a little bit of a habit which I think you get in kind of a you know, second half of the second year possibly so for me, it was a good way to kind of segue to still having movies all day all good anytime movies during the night. That's just threw some sleeping. Yeah, yeah, I

Jacqueline Kincer  30:01  

love that. Because I think it's so important to have that conversation of you know that it doesn't have to be all or nothing, right? Like, you're, you're tapped out, you're touched out, but like maybe if we just, you know, eliminate half of the day like, we'll feel better. And, you know, I guess I'm curious, you said someone actually made a suggestion to you to write a book or to dry it, and you didn't do that. But how, how did you get really going and solidify the idea of a book as being helpful to parents and toddlers with the weaning process?

Katherine Havener  30:31  

Well, first of all, there wasn't anything out there. And I knew that and I think like I mentioned, I think I knew it was a harder thing to communicate verbally. So if I if we had a picture of okay, what is it? What is daytime, right? And we can say, daytime is okay, well, the sun is out, right? And so I figured that would make it more tangible. And then, of course, you know, children, young children love to look at images, they like to look at images of babies, you know, of breastfeeding. And then in my book, there's like a cat throughout the book. So it can really I think, just make it a little bit more tangible than just mom saying, No, you know, nighttime, we don't have milk, because that's just, that's not hard. That's a hard for an 18 month or a two year old to kind of really understand No, it's hard. And especially know with specifics, like no at night, yes, during the day,

Jacqueline Kincer  31:16  

right? Oh, yes. No, that's so true. The visual element. And yeah, and I know that apparently, you're not an illustrator, but you had one for the book, and the images are stunning and beautiful. I love to hear how that process of even, you know, just just writing the book and moving forward through publishing and finding the illustrator happened, because, wow, like, just Yeah, I think that's one of the things that makes that book so appealing for me as a parent right is like, wow, this is a really beautiful book.

Katherine Havener  31:45  

I think that's, I think with a children's book illustrations, I feel like our everything. And I think that's been helpful to the success of the book, Sarah, Sarah Burrier is the illustrator. And her work is beautiful, it's watercolors and I found her back then there was a website called illustration Friday, and I think illustrators would put their their images up, and I was looking for someone who had that kind of a good night moon feel to it, who could do illustrations? And, yeah, so I had, I just reached out to her, and I was really blessed that she was willing to kind of work on a, you know, a contractual basis for that for the book. And so she, we, my brother, actually, uh, oh, my gosh, he is he is a multi talented man. And he he did the kind of the video visual design of the meaning key, and he and I in Illustrator would go back and forth, and just trying to make sure things were uniform. And that, you know, you were conveying what needed to be conveyed in a particular page. And then he put all the graphic design pieces in together. So he's the uncredited person behind the book who really made it happen. But of course, Sarah's work is stellar. So yeah,

Jacqueline Kincer  32:50  

no, it just, it brings the story together so beautifully. Because like you said, this, you know, night and day and visual representation of things, and just right, yeah, and your book has been around for a little while, which is so great about Wow, yeah, 12 years now. I know, like, congratulations. And I'm just I'm grateful. Yeah, yeah, it's huge. And, you know, obviously, there's like reviews on it, you know, when you go to look at the listing and whatnot. But have you heard from families? Like, have they reached out to you? And if they have like, what have they said about, you know, the book and the impact it's made?

Katherine Havener  33:26  

Yeah, I've definitely, of course, over the years had a lot of good feedback about it, because it does represent a that piece of our parenting society that is more attachment based. And it's, you know, and breastfeeding and into toddlerhood and beyond, which up to that point, there was very, very little out there. So I think that's been the positive. Now, my book can't represent all segments of society. So I have actually contemplated like, should I have a LGBTQ couple? Right? Yeah, have two moms or have it not being in the family bed? And I think, I think if there are other books out there that do not feature that, of course, that would be a little less niche. But for me, that was what at the time were presented my family so but so that's where the feedback lives, mostly, aside from, you know, the fact that you know, some of them would like the hardback and there was actually a hardback out there. So, but in general, obviously, it's been a very, I've sold a lot of copies and have been, you know, been grateful to be able to help people make that it's really about the communication so have have that communication assistance in that weaning that night weaning journey. Yeah.

Jacqueline Kincer  34:26  

And it is it feels like, Okay, here's, here's somebody who knows, right? The book is, you know, as much for parents as it is for the toddler, and it's like, okay, yeah, there's somebody who gets this and that it's not easy, and they're here to help me with it. So I think that's so cool. Do you have like, I'm just curious, do you have clients that you work with that like they don't know that you've written the book, but like later find out?

Katherine Havener  34:51  

It does happen? Yeah, a lot. A lot of people are other like, you know, midwives are like, Oh my gosh, I didn't know this was your book. And I'm like, Yes. I mean, I am definitely not the type that. I don't know, I try to stay humble. I mean, for this way, and you know, I don't brag about things. But yes, it is kind of funny. But in general, though, I always offer my clients like if you're going to be breastfeeding and toddlerhood, I will, you know, you get a free book.

Jacqueline Kincer  35:15  

Oh, that's really cool. Well, you've you've done this book. And I'm curious if you have plans for any other books, children's books in the future. Tell us if there's anything going on there. I know, you kind of mentioned maybe making different versions as well. Yeah.

Katherine Havener  35:30  

So much. It's about the illustrator. So the end for me, I, you know, a lot of people can use well, who self published might use illustrations or computer stuff. But for me, I really want art. So yes, but I do have a second book that has been written. And it's a complete weaning book, but my private practice has been very busy. And so my attention has been more on that. So it is my hope next year, I think there's gonna be a little bit of a life shift for us and in a good way. So I'll have a little more time. And that helped to do that and, and get that put put out there because I think that'd be helpful. And then yeah, I don't know I have I do have I want to write a book for parents on my journey, not specifically about my journey, but kind of a guidance about Attachment Parenting and how that has out pictured so successfully and so wonderfully in my in my life. Because when I started doing it, when my kids were so young, it was like, wow, okay, I'm gonna try this. Anyway. So that's my, that was my probably my new project after that.

Jacqueline Kincer  36:28  

Yeah, I think that would be really great. Yeah. And I think, I don't know, I'm the older I get. And I love reading fiction books. So I like stories. And I think that, you know, human societies for so long have learned through story. And when you share your story and real practical examples of how things have worked out for you, we can find ourselves in that and apply those things. Like I just, sometimes it's very difficult to grasp an abstract or theoretical concept to go, Okay, well, this is how to be an attachment parent, right? Like, if you are like, this is how we did it. And these were all the little things along the way. That's right, please write that book.

Katherine Havener  37:10  

I think so. I don't, to my knowledge. I don't think there's a lot out there right now about it. And those who choose this, it's it's certainly it's not a common way to parent but you know, we just are we are trusting the research, and hoping for the best, right? And I wish I had someone who said, yes, here, it's gonna, here's how it's gonna turn out, right? Because I remember I four daughters, people would tell me when I had young daughters that I was going to be in so much trouble, like it was going to be so horrible when they were teenagers. And I should watch out and it has literally been the exact opposite. It's, it's been easy and fun. I love them being teenagers, and that it's truly worked out. So I think people need to hear that. And so that's kind of my goal. But you know, just with regard to the nurses on the sunshine, I mean, that's for me, that was what our parents tell their parents are going through, I get it like, it was it's exhausting. You know, you are desperate for sleep. And you know, and you're in I remember like toddlers are like, I want boobies. I want buoys like, you know. And you're and you're feeling overwhelmed. Right? And so that was my story multiple times. And so I just really feel for parents, and I just hope that that can help them because you can still what I learned is it's okay to say no, like that was my the linchpin for what allowed me to Nightwing is that you had to learn that it is okay to say no to having boobie sometimes. And when I when that clicked in my head, like Yeah, it doesn't mean you're gonna traumatize them. That doesn't mean you're breaking attachment. You're just saying no. And then that allowed me to say, Okay, I'm just gonna say no, no boobies now. But I still love you. And you're still close by and I'm still giving you hugs and kisses. And that helped me a lot.

Jacqueline Kincer  38:42  

Yeah, I think there's so much there that is like, kind of between the lines of what you said, which is that, you know, you can still be an attachment parent, but put some boundaries into place, right. Breastfeeding is something that you know, goes along with attachment parenting so nicely, but too often, we do see those parents who end up just, you know, kind of self sacrificing in the name of attachment, which is not healthy attachment. Right. It's unhealthy attachment. So there's a lot there.

Katherine Havener  39:15  

I agree with it. But boundaries. You're right, that's a better word than No,

Jacqueline Kincer  39:17  

yeah. If boundaries. And yeah, I think you know, like you're saying giving yourself permission to say no. Right? And to see that, you know, this is a relationship with your child. Right. I always like to say that breastfeeding is a relationship and you know, utilizing something like night weaning to continue that relationship, evolve it mature it, that's awesome that you're now seeing the results of that style of parenting.

Katherine Havener  39:41  

Yeah, it's wonderful. I am super grateful. And I just want parents to know that that is okay. Like it is it is more than okay, if breastfeeding isn't working for you. It's not working. You know, let's so let's What can I do to make it work and this is one way of making it work and taking that stress up and allowing you to be a better parent because you're rested. So yeah, that's a really important, I think distinctions.

Jacqueline Kincer  40:03  

Yeah. And I think it's great to have a sort of in between option if you will, to say it doesn't have to be okay nursing or weaning, there's this thing called night weaning. And yeah, probably you're gonna want to pick the nighttime tween and suppose the daytime, so you could get that precious sleep. And this is such a nice option that, you know, full weaning can come after, right, but you can kind of try it on for size.

Katherine Havener  40:29  

That's right. So yeah, yeah, exactly. I think it's a very good first step for a lot of folks. I mean, there's some people who don't mind the nighttime when it can, maybe they can sleep through it better. I could never sleep through it. Well, toddler nursing, but in general, I think it is a really good first step, because yeah, we never really want to just like go cold turkey from from for weaning, I think it's hard on the beat on the child, it's hard on our boobs. We know, we got to be really careful that we do things gradually. So it's a good first step.

Jacqueline Kincer  40:54  

Yeah. And, and, of course, your book is, you know, full of this as well, and, and whatnot. But I would just love to hear your advice that you'd give to parents who are trying to night when they're toddlers, because, like you said, it's, you know, something that is also maybe a difficult decision, right? Like, you can have maybe some guilt associated with that. So I'd love to hear your advice.

Katherine Havener  41:17  

Yeah, I mean, I think the emotional piece of it really is remembering that you that your needs are important too. And if you are feeling rundown, and that you cannot parent in the way that you need to parent during the day, because the demands of breastfeeding are too high at night, it is a good thing for you to sit to set that boundary and to say no. And for me, I did night when while being in the family bed, we didn't do some things. So I would be like, Okay, we're gonna have our nighttime boobs, and we're, then we're gonna, there's gonna be no more. And then we woke up in the family bed. And we're like, Okay, it's time for milk ease. So by knowing that I wasn't going to break that bond attachment, they still knew I was there, they still knew that they were loved. I was just saying no, that made that emotional decision a lot easier for me. And I think that I hope that would be the case with others as well.

Jacqueline Kincer  42:06  

Yeah. And I think what's cool, what I'm hearing you say is that you don't have to take more drastic measures, like, you know, taking the child out of the family bed, just so you can night wean. Right, like it's still possible to continue some things in fact, maybe even more so beneficial to continue that, but just change one thing, because I see sometimes parents try to like go all or nothing like yeah, we're gonna nightly and you're gonna stay in your own room, and then Dad's gonna come and respond to you and not me, and like ripping all these things away, but you're offering this other way of going, well, we don't have to change all of those things. It's still your child can actually still stop nursing at night. But you can have these other things.

Katherine Havener  42:46  

Yes, I think that's a really important thing. Because toddlers, you know, all of these things are attached to being close to parent and the breastfeeding themselves and if we and the mother often in many cases with breastfeeding parents so if we make those huge changes that actually can really backfire. I think for parents for for the mother because or the mother or the breastfeeding parent because it's like then the baby's reacting to all this change all this you know and so if we only change that one thing, which is the when we breastfeed and then we do that and then if you want to take the you know if you want to transition to a different bed later or you want to have parent No the other parent do it fine, but one little thing at a time, makes it just more much more gentle. Oh,

Jacqueline Kincer  43:28  

absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I just I love that you you're just so well versed in this right like you've just you've written a great book, and I truly think it's an awesome tool for families. Where can listeners go to learn more about you and your work and where can they buy your book?

Katherine Havener  43:44  

Oh, thank you. So you can go the book is available on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. I do note that I actually prefer the hardback book but you have to look for it specifically. So just so you know, the Amazon hasn't separately on different pages which is really annoying that I had to fix it so I would just say Google the Nursies When the Sun Shines hardback because then you'll get that really nice cover but if you want to prefer a soft back or it's also a Kindle version as well. You can look for that and then for me, I met star lactation.com That's my well that's my website for my my personal practice and I do on my website and star lactation have V there is basically a night weaning guide that got taken out of the most recent edition so and that literally gives you that how to like you know how to get ready tonight when and what to where and it's you know, things like that and what to do if your child is ill or should you know in the middle of the night when you process things like that. So that is on my website as well. Currently Very

Jacqueline Kincer  44:39  

cool. Well, we will provide the in the show notes, the links to all versions of the books that makes it easier for people to find and your website. Well, thank you, Catherine. I so appreciate you being here today.

Katherine Havener  44:51  

Thank you for having me. Absolutely

Jacqueline Kincer  44:52  

take care. Well, it was truly lovely to hear from Katherine about her fantastic book and And now we are going to introduce you to Yvette Reed who has written not just one but two books on weaning. And actually, some of her inspiration came from Catherine's book. So you'll hear about that in her interview. But Yvette is a mother. She's a marriage celebrant, and she is a casting director and now author based in Auckland, New Zealand. And her books are a different style of weaning bulk. And what I love and something that Julie actually mentioned in her interview was how, you know, there's different books for different families, different weaning books for different situations. And so if maybe you don't feel like you've quite found the right fit for something for your family, yet, maybe events, books are the right fit for you. So she's an incredible human, just a wonderful person. I'm so glad I got to connect with her despite our drastic time difference and being across the world. Isn't technology. Amazing. So without further ado, let's talk to Yvette Reed. Welcome to the podcast Yvette. I'm so excited to have you here. And just for our listeners who are getting to know you, I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about yourself and your background, especially in writing books.

Yvette Reid  46:16  

Okay, well, thanks for having me. This is really cool. My first podcast, I live in New Zealand. I have one son and two stepdaughters and I am 41 years old. And I've been a actual casting director and celebrant for this the last 13 years, and I had no aspirations to be a children's book author, it just kind of happened. So it was something that I did just for my own son, I wrote a book specifically for him to solve a problem that I had. And I never had plans on going further than that, when I first wrote it. So yeah, that's how I started, it was kind of in the same kind of zone as when you see an old chest of drawers on the side of the road, and you go, Oh, I could take that home and send it down and varnish it. That was kind of the attitude I had towards self publishing the book on KDP. I was just like, Okay, I've got a few months where I don't have much work. COVID was still going on, had a really good experience with my own son using the technique. And a lot of my friends had said, oh, you should totally rewrite it for other parents to use and publish it. And I just went on to the internet and started Googling, how do you self publish a book. And before I knew it, I was putting up a listing for an illustrator. And then I was like, kind of committed. But it was really just a project. I thought, if I sell 20 books of I get help one other parent and one of the toddler, that would be really cool. So it's, yeah, been quite amazing that it's surpassed all those initial expectations, which was just as like a little creative project for myself.

Jacqueline Kincer  47:58  

That's, that's wonderful. And you mentioned that you kind of wrote this for your son, for you and your son. Right? So and then, you know, wanting to help other parents. So it's about weaning, and yeah, it just love to hear kind of that inspiration for even writing the story to begin with, and and how you crafted it. Yeah, well,

Yvette Reid  48:15  

at the time, it was the beginning of our first COVID locked down here in New Zealand. And I had time because all my other work had gone away for a period of time. And we're a few months away from my son turned into. And for me, that was my goal was to get to two and then I really wanted some freedom back the ability to go out in the evening, on occasion, or, you know, have a drink, or just have a little bit more freedom for myself. So that was the date. And I had a goal there. And I felt there must be a winning book that exists that makes this fun or easier for a child. And I searched and searched and searched and all the winning books that I came across, had a messaging that didn't quite sit with what I was wanting to do with him. So they basically had the messaging of your old now. So it's time to stop, or it was just basically a nicer way to give bad news, like the milk is going away. You're not going to breastfeed anymore. It was and there was as simple as that. And I just wanted something a little bit more, I guess emotionally supportive for him. And I had done a little bit of reading just things that I'd come across about indigenous tribes that control their children's behavior through story rather than punishment. And I thought that was quite interesting. So it was things like maybe they say at nighttime, there's a monster that comes into the lake. And it just stops the kids going to swim at night where no one can see them. Or if you go on the forester line the witch Mike you I don't know. So they don't go into the forest line. And so that got my my brain ticking over. And then I also started to think of like what Western myths and stories we tell our kids And the tooth fairy was the main bit of inspiration for me, because it's so magical and wondrous. And it makes this awful thing, your teeth falling out to be this thing that kids actually look forward to. And I also thought about my own experience being a kid, I was told that Santa Claus existed. And I kind of believed it. But I didn't even get a present from Santa. It was just this weird thing where I kept on believing, but my parents always took the credit or my presence with mom or dad. But as I got older, I got a bit jealous thinking about these kids whose parents go to such lengths they put, you know, reindeer poo outside and fluffing the door on the door kind of stuck somewhere or some snowy footprints, even just the people who do the cookies and their carrots. I was like, ah, that's so cool. Because you can see with their kids, when they see evidence, there is absolutely no doubt they're like it happened. And it's so much more exciting for them. So I was, I was trying to think of some sort of legend or myth that I could make up, invent and say to my son, because he doesn't know that this isn't common. This isn't common knowledge that this is just mums story. Just Just something magical, that I could tell him to help help him with the process of letting go of something which had been a part of his life since day.so. Yeah, I came up with the concept that the moon sins, mumps, mother's boobie milk. And when you're done, when it's time you, you send it back. And then the moon has more magic to give to the other new newborn babies. And I chose the moon because he was obsessed with it at the time, he would look up to it and be like, Oh, the moon and his dad would point it out to him if he was upset, and it would stop him from crying. And I was just looking at it one night while they were looking at us, like, it actually is incredible. Like when you look up and see the moon, it already feels like a magical thing. And I think we kind of lose that kind of awe and wonder as we become adults, and we forget how amazing simple things like that. But I didn't even have to explain why or how, for a while, I thought maybe I have to make up some legend about why the Why does the moon do it? And how does the moon get the magic? I was like, You know what? No, he's too. I can just say, the moon since the baby milk and then we send it back. And so then I thought about the Santa thing went, how can I give evidence that it's gone back to the moon, I didn't want to just say, and so I thought about things like maybe an owl flies it to the moon and you see feathers left behind like a fairy, I thought of all these kinds of things. And then I thought no, if he actually sees it go, that would be the biggest thing. And so thinking I was going to be the only when doing it, I got a helium balloon that was glow in the dark. And we charged it under the wardrobe light. And then that night, the night of his birthday. It's like, Okay, it's time to say goodbye to baby milk. And his dad took them outside to show him the moon. And then I came out with a glowing balloon. And I gave it to him and I said the baby milk Magic's gone into the balloon, and now you're gonna get back to the moon. And he actually got to let it go as well, which was really good afterwards. Because then anytime he said to me, I'll want some boobie. When I reminded him No, no, no, that baby milk has gone back to the moon. Remember, it would go I yeah, I let it go. I let it go. When it went to the moon, it flew to the moon. And it became like this happy memory for him. So it works perfectly for me. And the idea of making a book first came from reading Gnosis when the sun shines for night waning. So I had read that book to him, but he'd still cried. I know it had helped. But I really wanted an experience for total weaning where we had less tears. So yeah, it worked for me and lots of other people since then, which is really cool.

Jacqueline Kincer  53:51  

Yeah. Oh, no, I love the whole sort of magic ritual element of it. Because I think, you know, parents have devised those types of things around like pacifiers, you know, so they'll have them sewn into a stuffed animal that's the new lovey for the child or, you know, there's a pacifier fairy or, like you said, trying to take these other tooth fairy Santa Claus types of things. And no one had done that for weaning yet. So I think it's great. And then giving the child agency in it and just making them an active participant in it and not just losing something that they have so be loved. So yeah, I think that's just such a great way. And I know you've said to when we were getting ready to record this, that there's a lot of mothers that you've heard from, that the book has had an impact on them. So I'd love to hear about that. Because, you know, these books are kind of, you know, for the child, right, but breastfeeding isn't just something that the child does. So yeah,

Yvette Reid  54:47  

yeah, it's it's something I hadn't thought of when I was writing it. And I think there was certain parts in the book that I knew hit my heartstrings and made me tear up and still do occasionally like right now because I've just spoken to you about how it started and the mindset I was in, and the ritual and stuff, if I tried to read my book right now, I would probably cry on certain pages. And I get that all the time. So, so many mothers tell me that the first few times they read the book, they're in tears. And it's because it's helping with the grieving process. It's, it's, you know, acceptance is so important when we're grieving something. And I think so often, we're so focused on our children, that we forget that we're going through something as well. And for mothers is a huge change. And there's a fear involved with the loss of connection, like Will I still get as many cuddles and stuff like that, and you do, they come back. And also there's hormones, especially if people cut down quickly that change in hormones can make a massive change to a mother's emotions. And so it's, it's really nice when I hear from mothers that they found it healing for them as well. And a lot of them read the book, until they feel ready more than when their child feels ready. Sometimes the toddler is ready from day three, but they're like, I need to read this for a few months. And then because every time they've read it, they've imagined that process that ritual of saying goodbye. And also you can't go back, which is a good, I think it's a good thing about Booby Moon as once you've seen that magic back to the moon, you know that you can't really then give in and start nursing again. Because two weeks later, he's got a cold, or, you know, he's upset about something, because you've sent it back to the moon and you can't do it twice. Otherwise, they won't believe you the second time. So yeah, it's been amazing to read reviews, with mothers that have spoken more about their own experience. And I've seen things on Facebook where people have gone on, you know, I'm feeling really upset about the idea of weaning, and to see another mother go, oh, you should do baby moon. I'm like, amazing when I don't have to plug my own book.

Jacqueline Kincer  57:00  

Oh, yes. No, that's great. It's funny, because in preparation of this, you know, I went to the the Amazon listing for the book. And you're just looking at the reviews, which are, of course, awesome. And somebody had made a moon candle, which I thought was really neat. Yeah, I

Yvette Reid  57:14  

love that people are making the ritual their own, it doesn't have to be what I did. And I talked about that in the back of the book. I'm like, you know, if you want to do the balloon, great. Obviously, it's not an environmental choice. So you can put a bit of nylon or kite string onto it, and then pull it back in once the kids inside, people have done bubbles. And people have done glow in the dark bubbles with black light, sprayed glitter into the air. I love the moon candle. Someone else also just tied a balloon with glow in the dark sticks at the bottom to a tree and told their child that when all the magic had gone to the moon, the glow would be gone. And of course those glow sticks slowly fade over time. So that was a really cool way of doing it as well. I think the important thing is that it's just something that the child can witness.

Jacqueline Kincer  58:00  

I love that, oh, there's so many different ways. And I think what's really cool is that I somehow miss this. But now I know is that you have Booby Moon with Two. So tell us about that book.

Yvette Reid  58:14  

So I wrote with him and for my son 2020. released it is a book with no gender, no names, rhyming, but other people 2021. And then I spent about a year just on lots of breastfeeding and winning pages and stuff because I had that connection now with my book. And I've done so much research before I released the book that I was replying to parents questions about all sorts of other things, not just about my specific way of doing things. But weaning in general, I had noticed that every time tandem-feeding mother so someone who's feeding a baby and a toddler at the same time, every time they'd asked for help online, there was no nothing. There was nobody chiming in with help at all. They got what follows and people saying, me too, I'm regretting it. I don't know what to do. And I was like, there's no resources for this woman. And at first I thought, well, I can't help because both the moon it goes to the moon, so then they wouldn't have any for the baby. But I thought about it for a while and figured out a way which is just I think we'll have one last boobie and find the moon in the sky. And we'll say thank you baby milk, but it's time to say bye bye. Mama will keep baby's milk but mine will fly. We'll see. We'll send my milk to the moon and feel so proud of me. So just with that one sentence of Gone, baby's milk will stay but my milk is gonna fly away. And then it went goes into lots of other things to try and help support tandem food, toddlers, things about when baby drinks the milk. They'll play with a special toy. I've done some research into the things that people would recommend had been through it. So I've never turned them fed. So I wasn't creating it out of a need for me that the first book was just to sell If my problem, this was to solve the problem that I kept on seeing come up on social media, where they just didn't have a resource. And I couldn't find a tendon feeding book. Maybe one exists, but I, in my search, I couldn't find one to recommend to them. So I was like, Ah, I'll try and help them out there.

Jacqueline Kincer  1:00:16  

Yeah, I can't say that I know of one. And even for a book for parents, there is one. Well, there's more than one, but one that I would consider as kind of more of an instruction manual, and it's been out of print for so long, it's incredibly difficult to find. So yeah, it's, it's also a little long and big. So I don't know, we're gonna share that with the toddler.

Yvette Reid  1:00:40  

This is definitely bigger than the first one because it has to cover so much more. It has to cover a new baby coming on sharing. And you know, then you're growing up and having a birth day, the baby milks going just for you. And then what will you do when the baby fades. And I also made sure to put in it that one day when babies big like me, their milk diet will come just to kind of reiterate that fairness that yes, you're sending your baby milk away now. And one day, baby will as well. And you'll help show baby how to do it. You're showing how it's done.

Jacqueline Kincer  1:01:18  

I love that. And that's a book like you can you know, keep that one and then come back to sort of book one a few well, Booby Moon for when that second child is older. Yeah, you could, you know, I could see the older one wanting to come back to Booby Moon withTwo and, and have that kind of continuity. So yeah, that's amazing. I love that you. You went into those groups, and you saw this unsolved problem, and really created something that sounds like it's very needed. And I would say it's very needed. Absolutely. That's a it's such a niche thing to, you know, stop breastfeeding one child and keep going with another for sure. Yeah,

Yvette Reid  1:01:57  

yeah, it's definitely the trickiest situation, I think. And I really feel for those mothers, because I think mothers that tend and feed have the softest hearts, they are the most gentle parents because they're the ones who were pregnant and breast fed through all those aversions. And then when one came, and this devout got to, to look after they still went, though, I don't want my older baby to feel like I'm casting them aside for the newborn, you know, this so sensitive, that they really want to look after their older child's hearts, and the whole process of heaviness a younger sibling. And so I think it hurts them even more when they finally go, No, for my own mental health. I've got to stop this now. And they've and I think a lot of them feel like, Why did I do this? You know, they feel that feeling of regret. And so I love now that I'm starting to hear from mothers that have used boogie men with too. And the relief seems even bigger than with the first one, because they've just got such a sense of, I guess, relief, that they didn't paint themselves into a corner, there was a positive, gentle, kind of loving way out of this situation where they could get their mental health back and not feel so thinly spread, I guess.

Jacqueline Kincer  1:03:19  

Yeah. Oh, gosh. And yeah, one of the reviews I see someone left on the Amazon page for that book. said how excited their toddler is about Booby Moon like That's so great. Right to you made me sad as the mom like you said, just, you know, there's there's a lot of emotions there. But to have the child's be excited about the boogie moon in the process. And I think that's great. Right makes it a little bit easier for us to not have that. Internalized mom guilt. So yeah,

Yvette Reid  1:03:50  

yeah. And that's, I mean, the coolest thing about it is that I haven't paid $1 for advertising. Because mums are great like that, when a mum does something and it works for them. They tell other moms and so I just have to be patient, you know?

Jacqueline Kincer  1:04:05  

Yes. Oh, it's so true for

Yvette Reid  1:04:07  

Word to spread. Yes. Those

Jacqueline Kincer  1:04:08  

moms groups, it's like, yeah, something they have to tell the world and I love that. Yeah, well, you've written these two books. Do you have any plans to write any other books? Or do you have enough to do?

Yvette Reid  1:04:22  

Well, yeah, I do have other jobs, but it's definitely something I want to keep doing now. But I'm not interested in being a children's author for the sake of it. Like, you know, I see books come out and the author's definitely thinking from a sales or marketing point of view, you know, the train that couldn't stop farting, or, you know, dinosaur plane or, you know, the turtle that pood you know, like, you can put certain words together in a title of a book and have kids obsessed with dinosaurs trains and fart and you say, the dinosaur train that wouldn't stop farting. Someone's going to buy that book and think well, regardless of the content, but I really He inspired at the moment, I guess, because it's been so affirming for me to hear back from people, just the gratitude that they had this experience and that I solved a parenting problem. Because when we have a problem in parenting, we feel so desperate for help. That's my main area of interest. And I'm not out looking for problems. I'm just going to keep on parenting. And then if something comes up, and I'm like, maybe a book could help this, then I'll write or write a book for this particular situation. But at the moment, I'm working on as Spanish translation of the first movie book, which is a bit of, I don't know, a good way to say it a mind for me, because I don't speak Spanish. But yeah, I'm getting some help with that. And it was an inch, it's been a very interesting process, because not only does it have to have the same content, and a different language, I also want it to still rhyme. So we'll get there eventually. And then maybe another language, I only do it if people ask, so I've had so many people request it. I've had a lot of people mentioned that because I've made my characters kind of olive skin tint that a lot of Spanish language speakers were like, Ah, my son loves it, because it looks like him. I wish it was in Spanish as well. So I've gone. Okay, well, if I hear something a few times, then I'll look into it.

Jacqueline Kincer  1:06:26  

Yeah. Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah, I think I think the more languages the better. Especially because I feel like it can be not always, but more common in, you know, nonwestern cultures. I think you know, of the US and Canada and Australia and whatnot, right like that. They may be more likely to breastfeed longer term. So, yeah, offering in multiple languages.

Yvette Reid  1:06:52  

Yeah, I think we're quite lucky in other parts of the world. But I'm surprised at how, you know, I don't know much about I guess, what's usual, and America, but I mean, America in the UK are the places where I'm selling the most books, but I know you have very little maternity leave. So I'm surprised at how many women do manage to breastfeed for so long. I think it's amazing. It's true.

Jacqueline Kincer  1:07:14  

It's really shocking. Well, your contribution, I think, is amazing. And contributions. Right? So yeah, it's just beautiful. And yeah, just your publishing on Amazon, you're doing the KDP. So kind of print on demand, where can people do you have a website? Where can people can connect with you? And just, you know, we'll link the the books up in the show notes as well.

Yvette Reid  1:07:35  

I have a Facebook page that I've made for it. If anybody wants to ask me a specific question that's not covered in the guide at the back, I answered questions there. And yeah, it's just Amazon, you can request it through bookstores, and they will then order it from Ingram Spark. I think that's just the hardcover though. So it's a little bit more expensive than Amazon. But a lot of people like the hardcover because it lasts longer. Oh,

Jacqueline Kincer  1:07:58  

I love that. That's an option. That's so great. Well, thank you so much for sharing your journey with creating these books and how it's helped yourself and your son and so many people.

Yvette Reid  1:08:10  

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

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